Surviving Putin’s Gulag: The Price of Dissent in Russia with Vladimir Kara-Murza, Evgenia Kara-Murza

Full Transcript:

Björn Stritzel: Ladies and gentlemen, it’s a great honor to open the first panel with two of the most impressive people of our time. Two champions of human rights, two of the great heroes of our time. My name is Björn Stritzel, I’m the chief international correspondent for Germany’s BILD newspaper.

And I gotta say, I’m also personally very happy to see both of you united on this stage after seeing you, Evgenia, speaking here on behalf of Vladimir. In the past, we’ve seen it in the clips. And you, Vladimir, have spoken here a couple of times before. Now, the both of you are united here. Many people in this room advocated for your release. None of them fought as brave and fiercely as Evgenia. So it’s really incredible to see the both of you united here again.

So, a year ago, when the news came that the Putin regime murdered Alexei Navalny, I remember many people were really, immediately shocked by the news and thought of you that it has to take a miracle to survive, for you to survive, for you to get out and to continue your fight against the Putin regime. Now, obviously this regime, they tried to kill you, they tried to silence you, they tried to intimidate you, but obviously they couldn’t break you. Just a few hours after you, after you were released, you already went to a press conference, and you announced to that you were going to continue your fight, together with Evgenia. Can you tell us a little bit?

I’ve seen you traveling a lot, you’re giving a lot of interviews in the past months since your release. Can you tell us a little bit about your work with the Free Russia Foundation in the past month, especially now with the different circumstances you are now fighting together, outside from Russia and not inside in Russia. Can you share a little bit of insight of this?

Vladimir Kara-Murza: Thank you so much, Björn, thank you Hillel, and to all friends at United Nations Watch and everybody here today at the Geneva Summit for Human Rights and Democracy. You mentioned what miracle, Björn in your introduction, was that it would take a miracle to set us free. And it was a miracle. This is the only way I can describe it. I was certain that I was going to die in that Siberian prison.

And ever since the first of August last year, I’ve been watching this film, really, to be honest, it’s still completely surreal, and this is a particularly good episode today here in Geneva, but it still doesn’t quite feel like a reality. But I think this miracle that happened on the first of August goes to show that advocacy matters, that public attention saves and that good people in democratic nations, when they join their efforts, when they stand together, when they work together, are stronger than any dictatorship can ever hope to be, because that exchange, the largest prisoner exchange between the East and the West since the days of the Cold War, that happened on the first of August would never have happened without all the advocacy and the speeches and the conferences and parliamentary hearings.

Today’s Russia, even, according to publicly available and self-admittedly incomplete figures from human rights groups, holds 1497 political prisoners. This is more than the whole of the Soviet Union, so that’s 15 countries put together, held in the mid 1980s towards the end of the communist regime. Just to give you a sense, this coming week alone, over the next five days, 243 people will be on trial in courtrooms across Russia on politically motivated charges.

And of course, the fastest growing category on that list are those Russians who’ve spoken out against the war in Ukraine, against the war of aggression led by Vladimir Putin’s regime against Ukraine, and that the Kremlin propaganda claims is supported by everyone in Russia. You know, they claim that all Russians support this regime, that all Russians back this war. But of course, as we know, actions always speak louder than words, and the reality tells a different story.

This reality of a spiral of repression, unparalleled since the Soviet era, that doesn’t see a day when there’s no politically motivated trial in Russia. And as I mentioned, there are hundreds who are imprisoned and there are thousands who have faced administrative charges, which is one step away from criminal prosecution. There are tens of thousands, gain this is according to publicly available figures, the dry figures of police statistics, tens of thousands of people who’ve been detained by police at anti-war protests across Russia since February of 2022 and last year, hundreds of thousands have signed up to petitions to get an anti-war candidate on the presidential ballot.

You have asked what our priority is for this, for this new era that before me, began last August. There are many things we’re working on. Many of them are to do with the future. Many of them have to do with preparations for the future. And I’m happy to talk about this if this is something of interest.

But for now, I just want to mention the absolute priority for us in the coming weeks, really in the coming days, because it is today, on the 18th of February, as we are gathering here in Geneva that in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia talks between the Trump administration and the Putin regime are beginning on the future ceasefire agreement in Ukraine.

And for us, for me and I know for many, many of our friends and colleagues, it is an absolute priority that any cease fire deal, post-war settlement agreement, whatever you want to call it, that any such deal to end the bloodshed in Ukraine includes a provision on the release of all captives of this war, meaning, of course, prisoners of war on both sides. That is expressly required by the third Geneva Convention, meaning Ukrainian civilian hostages, thousands of people whose status are not provided for by any documents of international humanitarian law.

In fact, Geneva Conventions specifically prohibit taking civilians as hostages, but that’s what Putin’s forces have been doing over the last almost three years. Thousands of them in Russian detention facilities, they have to be set free. Meaning thousands of Ukrainian children who have been abducted by Russian forces and taken to Russian territory. This is a war crime in international law.

And because of this, Vladimir Putin is now an indicted war criminal after the arrest warrant issued by the International Criminal Court. And very importantly, meaning also Russian political prisoners, those people, our fellow citizens, who are in prison today for the only reason of speaking out against this murderous, criminal war that the Putin regime is leaving.

All these people have to be released as a result of these negotiations that are starting today. This is an absolute priority. This is the thought I’m waking up with and going to bed with every single day, and we’re going to do everything that we can to make sure that becomes a reality.

Björn Stritzel:  Just to follow up on this. Evgenia, two years ago, you told me that one of the most important things would be to break the media monopoly in Russia, to break the monopoly of the propaganda apparatus, to break the monopoly of the of the toxic TV channels, to break the censorship that the Putin regime imposed on the internet.

One of those measures would be technical, to use VPNs to reach out to people to tell them the truth about the Putin regime. Two years later, can you tell us a little bit about how do you see these efforts taking place still, or is it that we just heard the Iron Fist of the regime getting an even, even more aggressive censorship stance and those silencing voices? Or do you see that there is still some grassroots movement of people who are not connected to some of the more prominent opposition organizations, like Memorial or people like yourself?

Evgenia Kara-Murza: Thank you very much for the question. I want to start by saying how grateful I am to be here today, this platform, the Geneva Summit for Human Rights and Democracy, sees people from all over the world, and we all come here to share our pain, our suffering, our sadness, sorrow, and we find support, solidarity, encouragement. And we realize looking at each other and hearing each other’s stories, that we’re not alone. That wherever we come from and whatever we look like, whatever language we speak, we’re fighting the same fight, and together we are stronger. So I want to thank the Geneva Summit for Human Rights and Democracy for creating this amazing community of fearless, indomitable freedom fighters of the world.

And to answer your question, censorship is one of the most powerful instruments used by dictators all around the world. This is the first thing that dictators want to do. They want to suppress the truth, and they want to silence those who will speak the truth despite anything.

And in Russia, the same thing happened, of course. The Russian population has been subject to propaganda for the same messages for over two decades already, because the last major, easily acceptable to the majority of the population, the last TV channel was closed down in 2003. That’s over two decades of propaganda, of hearing the same message again and again and again, that Russia is this big country surrounded by enemies, and everyone wants to see us on our knees.

Everyone wants to see Russia’s demise. The work of independent journalists in Russia is extremely dangerous, and hundreds of journalists were forced to leave the country after the full scale invasion of Ukraine because they wanted to continue their work. They understood that it was still important for people in Russia to hear the truth about what was happening. Hence, the very high number of VPN services installed over 2022. In fact, I believe that, according to reports, Russia placed second worldwide by the number of VPN services installed that year, which means that a huge number of Russians still sought access to information despite all the blockages installed by the state.But unfortunately, what we see today is that the work of independent journalists is not becoming any easier, but actually it is becoming harder, thanks to not just the efforts of the Russian propaganda and the Russian state, but very often that work is further complicated by the decisions of these big tech companies. For example, Apple, on the demand of the Russian authorities, removed dozens of VPN services from its App Store. These VPN services that Russian citizens used to access to independent information.

Apple removed access to independent media, like the Insider, Medusa, Radio Free Europe, Voice of America. I cannot understand this. I do not understand this. We all realize that our freedom depends in a big part on our possibility to access to independent information. People need to know what is actually happening to react to this, and I’m very saddened to see that independent media and Russian independent journalists are not just targeted by the Russian state, but also by those big tech companies.

Björn Stritzel: Vladimir, you just briefly mentioned so-called peace talks between US and Russia. You were friends with late US Senator John McCain, who never had any illusions about the Putin regime, who called them out at any opportunity. Do you see it as some discouraging sign when we now see the pictures of the US Secretary of State with Lavrov, deciding about the fate of another country? And what do you or whom do you see as your allies for a free Russia, once, the once the United States apparently didn’t go this prior way.

Vladimir Kara-Murza: Well, look, these past 25 years have not only been the story of the dismantling of democracy in Russia and the construction of a brutal, repressive, authoritarian, now bordering totalitarian regime built by Vladimir Putin. The last 25 years have also been a sad story of appeasement of this dictator by Western governments, Western countries, Western leaders on both sides of the Atlantic.

And this began straight away, as soon as Putin came to power. You know, Björn, there’s this myth that is often propagated by people, journalists, experts, politicians, both in Russia and in the West, very often for reasons of self justification, a myth that somehow there were two different Putins. There was an early Putin who believed in modernization and reform and cooperation with the West, and then something went horribly wrong along the way. So goes the myth. Nothing could be further from the truth. Putin was Putin from the very beginning.

I remember very clearly the day when I understood who this man was and what direction he was going to take our country. This was the 20th of December, 1999, the day still astonishingly celebrated by Russian security services as the Chekist day, the day of the founding of the Cheka, the Bolshevik secret police in December 1917. And on that day, Putin, of course, himself, a former KGB officer, came to Lubyanka Square in Moscow to the former KGB now FSB headquarters, to officially unveil a memorial plaque to Yuri Andropov.

Now, Andropov was someone who symbolized, who epitomized the worst of the worst of the Soviet system, both in terms of the internal repression and in terms of the external aggression. As Soviet ambassador to Budapest, he was one of the architects of the 1956 invasion of Hungary. As long time chairman of the KGB, he made it the priority to suppress and fight political dissent inside the country. He established a special directorate within the KGB to fight dissidents. He expanded the horrendous practice of punitive psychiatry, whereby opponents of the Soviet regime were declared mentally insane and kept in torturous conditions and psychiatric institutions. This was the man who epitomized everything that was wrong with the Soviet regime.

And it was to him that Putin chose to unveil a memorial plaque when he was still Prime Minister in December of 1999. And just in case somebody still had questions, in the first year of his presidency, Vladimir Putin brought back the Stalin-era Soviet national anthem as the anthem of the Russian Federation.

Now, Russia is a country of symbols, and you could not have chosen more potent symbols to start his new role. And you know, it wasn’t long before symbols were turned into actions as Putin moved to shut down independent media, expunge the opposition from Parliament, rig elections, suppress peaceful protest, remove the autonomy of the regions.

Then he began imprisoning his opponents, and he began murdering his opponents. And all this while we saw Western leaders on both sides of the Atlantic rolling out red carpets for Putin, inviting him to international summits, shaking his hands, you know, looking into his eyes and seeing his soul pushing reset buttons and so on. Frankly, it is astonishing to me that after everything, we are seeing this all over again, because this is again what it is.

I just want to remind everybody, we’re now in the month of February. February is now forever, a black month in Russia, a very, very dark month. February 16, as you just mentioned, was the first anniversary of the assassination of Alexi Navalny. In a few days, February 24 will be the third anniversary of the launch of the full scale invasion, full scale war of aggression against Ukraine.

And at the end of this month, February 27 will be exactly 10 years to the day when Boris Nemtsov, the leader of the Russian opposition, was assassinated directly in front of the Kremlin on Vladimir Putin’s personal order. This is all within these few days.

So I just simply want to remind all of those Western leaders, all of those Western politicians, again, we hear this on both sides of the Atlantic, who want to go back to business as usual with Vladimir Putin, who want to invite Vladimir Putin again to summits and roll out red carpet and trade with him. I want to remind you all those Western politicians who want to shake Vladimir Putin’s hand that this is a hand that is soaked in blood.

Björn Stritzel: And just one last quick question. We just heard quickly introduction notes about the fall of the Assad regime, about the fall of a regime that also looked stable from the outside in suppressing its people. But then the Syrian people overthrow their dictatorship, which no one expected, and was just two months ago. It humiliated, also, the Putin regime, as they were not able to save one of their long term allies. Do you see this as a sign of hope that could be?

Vladimir Kara-Murza: I think it’s a very important reminder about how dictatorships usually end, and it’s certainly the way they usually end in our country. There was a book recently out by a Berkeley sociologist, Russian by origin, Alexei Yurchak. It’s a book about the later years of the Soviet regime, late 1980s early 1990s, and the title of the book is, ‘It Was Forever Until It Was No More.’ This is exactly how things happen in Russia, both the Czarist regime in 1917 and the Soviet regime in 1991 collapsed in three days. Literally, not a metaphor, in three days. This is how things happen in Russia. Nobody was ready. Nobody saw it coming.

This is exactly how it’s going to happen the next time in Russia when big change comes. This is exactly how the Putin regime will fall. None of us knows exactly when or exactly in what circumstances, but we do know that it will, because nothing is forever, and Vladimir Putin is not an exception. And so I believe the most farsighted, the most important, the most responsible thing that we should all be doing now, we meaning the pro-democracy forces in Russia and our friends and allies in the free world, is to prepare that road map, that strategy, that plan for the day after Putin.

Because the next time there is a window of opportunity for democratic change in Russia, we have to get it right for the sake of the next generation, for the sake of our children, for the sake of humanity. Because we know, and I think nobody doubts this, after February 2022 that what happens in Russia affects everyone. Russia is the largest country in the world. Russia is the largest country in Europe, and the only way Europe is ever going to be truly whole, free and at peace with itself, is with a democratic Russia. That is a goal we should all be working towards. And I think it is within all of our interests to make sure that that day comes a little faster. 

Björn Stritzel: Indeed. Thank you so much, and I’m sure you will continue your fight. And may the day come of free Russia very soon, and we have a summit in Moscow with the two of you again. Thank you very much. It’s great to see you united here again, and all the best for you. Thank you very much.